PHIL 103 E, Monday, 9-18-17

Transcript

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[Music]
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philosophy 103 e September 18 2017 no
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classes Wednesday through Friday because
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of the Jewish High Holy Days so the next
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time we meet will be a week from today
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which will be the 25th and then again on
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the 27th it has it was pointed out to me
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in my first class that a draft of the
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first essay is due on the 27th and since
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the essay is about the apology and the
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cried oh and we haven't talked about the
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cried oh I think would be better for me
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to say a few words about the essay at
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the end of this class so I asked a
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student in the first class to remind me
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to try and save ten minutes at the end
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of class and it was about seven minutes
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before the end of the class and I
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remembered she hadn't and I said you
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didn't remember and she said class ends
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at 11:50 right
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I said no 11:40 because we don't take a
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ten-minute break so it just goes to show
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you how many different ways it is
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possible to commit errors and make
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mistakes and get things wrong so on so
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I'm asking you to remind me at this
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class ends at 1:40 at 1:30 to stop
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whatever I'm doing which may not be easy
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because I would have been working for an
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hour to get to that point maybe possibly
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sometimes it's you know it's just
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getting there anyway to take some time
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to talk about the essay now keep in mind
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you should between now and next Monday
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work on that draft and it's only a draft
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you'll get to work on it again after I
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return the draft to you but but you'll
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get on Monday the 25th you know you will
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talk about some of these things again so
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you'll have two more days before the
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draft is due
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also let me say this now the essays are
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not to be handed to me like the logs but
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to be sent to me as an email attachment
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right now so first point not as an email
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message but as an attachment okay
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and so let me use an actual name here
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we've got oh gee Voltaire okay so this
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is how I want you to name the document
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if you don't name it that way I can
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rename it but the more you do that I
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don't have to correct the less time for
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my clerical duties okay so your last
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name comma first initial essay one draft
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and okay that's how I I want the dot you
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to name the document so that I can save
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it that way in my computer and so what
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will happen is I'll read it in the
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computer and use the review techniques
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in Word where I can write comments in
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between your sentences or even in
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between your words and in the margin
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all over the place the average si gets
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back from me at least a dozen comments
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on it okay
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so whether they're helpful or not you'll
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have to judge for yourself but they're
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meant to be and and then you'll get it
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back to me it's due on the 27th you'll
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get it back to me a week from then and
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then you'll do it again within a week
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and you can see why we only do that for
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the first essay because we'd run out of
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semester time and you probably don't
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want to spend January with this course
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too even though you find it wonderful
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and exciting you might mess mess with
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your skiing trip or something so anyway
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so that will say more about the content
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after we've had some discussion so I've
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now read logs by you on user fro an
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apology to on the about old accusers and
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new accusers so I have a sense of what
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difficulties many of you all of you have
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some difficulties you're having with the
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arguments sometimes with the particular
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arguments that are apart and sometimes
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with the whole and I want to remind you
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that I'm trying to get you to think
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about the outline of the whole dialogue
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how it goes from the beginning to to the
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end and to have some sense of the steps
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involved in that because not just as a
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piece of information that's interesting
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in itself but also as a way of
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understanding the parts when to when you
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have something that's organic that
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means that the parts have a dependency
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on each other they're not independent
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the hole is not just a collection
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it's an inter relationship and when
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that's the case you cannot understand
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the part unless you know something about
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its relationships to the other parts so
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when I ask you to look for the outline
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of the argument in the whole dialog I'm
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doing so not just to make another demand
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on you but so that you can understand
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how some of these arguments you've
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encountered in the parts what their
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significance is in the whole so to put
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put that simply in the apology there are
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charges of two sorts as you know both of
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which are defended against the Socrates
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defends himself against rather briefly a
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little longer for the new accusers in
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the old but each each part each of the
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old and the new divides into two parts
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defense against charges and then another
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question and it's the other question
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that gets to space so if you're gonna
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understand what he's saying about the
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charges themselves you have you have to
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understand why he thinks that the
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charges themselves they're not the most
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important thing but let me start with
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the Euthyphro because it starts a theme
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that is characteristic of Socrates in in
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the apology socrates presents himself as
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a person who seeks the truth one of the
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words he uses that we use to refer to
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such a person and to refer to him as a
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philosopher
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in other words he's not just talking
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about something that he's done once or
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twice or so or many times it's who he is
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to what he does all the time in the
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Euthyphro go back to our first encounter
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with Socrates Socrates initially makes
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two points that should be familiar to
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you that you've heard me talk about
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before one is that he thinks that use
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the fro must know what piety is and he
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thinks that because he's out of respect
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for you so fro on the one hand and the
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fact that use of rose pressing charges
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against his father on the other in other
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words beautif Row is the kind of
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conscientious human being and also
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loving son that he would not expect to
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do something of such importance with
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such great consequence without great
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thought and therefore he must know what
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impiety is he wouldn't accuse his father
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of it unless he knew what it is and
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that's one thought and the other thought
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is that tells us both of these tell us
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who Socrates is he thinks that if he can
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learn from you so fro what piety is he
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will have a defense in his own trial
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where he's been accused of impiety so
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what do you see how that tells us
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something about who Socrates is not it's
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not a real difficult point what is
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Socrates saying that he thinks is
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important that would make a good defense
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what mr. Alfred alright so that's
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already too complicated it's probably
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true but what is it that Socrates thinks
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is is important that you have with
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respect to something like peyote and
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other subjects as well what do you need
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no that's what a piety involves that but
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what is Socrates always trying to get ya
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got it
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what does he seek what the truth and
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what does he it's more than true so
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right answer but more than what does he
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want with respect to the truth no now
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you know you're getting too complicated
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I made a simple point that obviously
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it's not it's it's only simple of you
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maybe it's not so simple Socrates makes
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two points to use or throw one is that
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use of throw must what what what mr.
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Dawkins I didn't hear you repeat what I
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said now we've got that already they're
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being done by the transcription but how
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about answer what I said Oh what does he
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what does he say Euthyphro must must be
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the case with Yousuf Rose what what yes
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he must know what piety is do you hear
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my emphasis know what piety is that's
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first point second point he wants which
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follows from the first one he wants
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Yusuf wrote to teach him so that he can
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know what piety is what is it that
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Socrates thinks is important knowledge
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that's what he's that's what Plato was
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showing you Socrates wanted knowledge
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okay now in the apology we're gonna come
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and come back to the use of frou but I
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just want you to get the feel for this
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one point in the apology he explains his
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life by reference by telling a story
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about an Oracle according to Socrates
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and his friend went to this Oracle I can
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tell you the whole story but what not
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it's simple enough
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what did Socrates take the Oracle to be
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telling him what did Socrates do after
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he heard about the Oracle somes not the
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smartest yes good mr. Dawkins now what
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did he do when he heard that okay
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Voltaire then why
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but notice the problem it's a good
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answer mr. Voltaire but I want this is
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very instructive for all the things you
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write when I ask you a question and you
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give an answer for it to be a good
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answer the connection between the answer
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and the question has to be made explicit
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I asked you what he when he after he
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hears the Oracle what does he do and you
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told me what he does but you didn't show
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me what that's got to do with the Oracle
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since I'm giving mr. Voltaire a hard
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time let's give him a chance to get back
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if he if he thinks of something right
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away otherwise he can do it later your
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name you're not telling me about the
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Oracle you're doing the same thing mr.
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Voltaire did which is good you showed
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that you understand what he was doing
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yes but what does it got to do with the
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Oracle no no you just gave the answer to
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the whole thing and before you even ask
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the question it's as if I was so open
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mouths damn I'm gonna ask you a question
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and then you were to say to me the
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answer is yes how do you know what the
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question is oh but I always want to say
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yes to you you might say oh yeah but in
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this case what I want is a no all right
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let me when Socrates hears the Oracle
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why doesn't he just say whew
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that's a very good answer but what do
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you have in your breath is that
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breakfast or lunch breakfast what is it
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chicken and rice is that the kind of
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breakfast you usually have yeah I know
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this is none of my business and what and
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teeth thank you just in case I wanted to
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know the drink okay we got that take
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care of the the true it's a very good
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answer except that it's not quite right
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because if Socrates didn't believe the
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Oracle that would mean that Socrates
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thinks that the God
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Paulo is a source of untruth and that
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would not be a nice thing to say about
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the guy right maybe it's true I mean I
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don't know but but Socrates claims to be
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pious so I doubt that he would say that
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the or what the Oracle said is untrue
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but it's close to the right answer no he
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didn't I know that's not an unreasonable
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way to describe what he did but look do
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we human beings know the truth do we
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have the truth that we're in possession
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of all the truth we know everything no
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no so what do we have to do to acquire
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the truth what research yeah that's a
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that's a modern word we use what is what
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what is Socrates do but what does he do
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he talks to other people that wouldn't
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be a bad answer even today right in your
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research when scientists do research
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don't they always tell you first what
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the state of the field is on this
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particular subject the research that
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other people have done and so on so the
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first thing they do is talk to other
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people and then when they get through
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with their research they submit it for
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publication publication right they
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submit it to the public or at least that
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part of the public that knows about
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these things and see what the other is
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say so even now although we think that
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experiments and so on observation of
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nature all that stuff even now we
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include talking to other people as a
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significant part and what Socrates is
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showing you is that what he does is talk
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to people and ask them questions
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especially people who claim to know
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something because if somebody if you ask
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somebody a question who says doesn't
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know anything about it
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where does that get you right so
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somebody thinks he knows something you
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ask him a question
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now nasty and erroneous ways I think of
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interpreting Socrates would be to say
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well he asked people questions in order
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to show they don't know anything that's
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nasty isn't it trying to show that
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somebody is full of baloney right I
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cleaned that one up just in the nick of
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time so but but the person might be full
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of baloney right so suppose that
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Socrates asked somebody a question that
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person's already knows something but
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actually he's full of baloney has
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Socrates done it done something nasty no
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if you if you think you know the way to
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get somewhere and you take your your
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idea it includes using the wrong train
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on the subway or something like that and
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somebody corrects you is he hurting you
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or benefiting you he's benefiting you
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right okay now however with directions
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like that people are not usually you
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know upset when you correct them they're
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probably appreciative but with a lot of
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things where our beliefs involve things
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that are important to us our values and
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so on the people questioning them might
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feel nasty to us might not feel like
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they're trying to be helpful
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so what Socrates tells you he did in
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response to the Oracle was to ask people
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questions people who claim to know now
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if he's doing it in response to the
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Oracle he's got to have some negative
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relationship to the Oracle and what I
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mean by that not necessarily that he's
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putting the Oracle down it doesn't have
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to be a negative relation of disbelief
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however but it's there's got to be some
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negative there that is to say something
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that has to be remedied
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that's what action is a for right you
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say what if I say to mr. Dawkins why are
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you eating that chicken and rice which
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by the way smells pretty good it must be
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close to my lunchtime
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what could he tell me he's hungry
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right and if somebody didn't understand
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what that's about you can say well you
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know the human body and you know
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nourishment yeah right okay so but but
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you're taking action in order to deal
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with some problem some negative
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situation if Socrates heard the Oracle
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saying a man you're number one he could
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have just celebrated right but he didn't
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and mr. Dawkins is pretty close to the
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truth when he says that Socrates didn't
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believe it but Socrates would never say
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that he would say justice just as he
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said about Yousuf ro but with more
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justification in his mind about the
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Oracle it must be true the Oracle said
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it it must be true he identifies the God
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with truth period but what's the problem
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then
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if what he or achill tells him is true
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mr. Alfred but why is there even any
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question right what is it that he has to
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see you were telling me that before
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actually Sandra yes how did I get to be
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number one I don't know a damn thing
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it's like telling me that I'm the
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tallest member of the faculty I would
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say what are you serious and I'd have to
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start looking at my colleagues and
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discover whether some of them are
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walking around on stilts or something
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right to make sense of that if I was
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sure that what you were telling me is
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true and yet my experience is so
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contrary now you see how close that is
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that what mr. Dawkins said is it's as if
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he doesn't believe it except that
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because it comes from the Oracle it's
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it's something you might say to a good
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friend even but no friend is a god but
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still there are friends we have
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confidence in so we say sometimes to our
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friends if
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if anybody else had told me that I
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wouldn't have believed it we say right
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but you I believe why because I know you
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don't make up stuff like that we have
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confidence in people his confidence in
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the god is complete
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that's how Plato is presenting him you
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might say oh I don't believe that
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Socrates was really like that maybe
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you're right but I'm talking about how
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Plato presents Socrates in this dialogue
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he's a guy who says the God said it I
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believe it but I don't understand it now
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this being in a position of not
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understanding things is is the human
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condition okay so Socrates is talking
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about something that's not unusual lack
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of understanding you can identify the
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truth with God or you can identify the
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truth with nature or whatever the fact
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is there's certainly a lot of it we
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don't know but Socrates but you're not
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allowed to hedge your bets some of you
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right in your logs Socrates says you
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know I hardly know anything no no that's
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not what he said he said he knows
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nothing and we have to come to terms
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with that but I'm not gonna do that just
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yet so he talks to people in order to
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find out if they know anything and he
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discovers that they don't so this is the
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this is the shocking Socrates tells this
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story as if it's a straightforward easy
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story right the Oracle told him
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something he went out and question
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people and he found out but what he
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found out is not something that we can
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just listen to and say oh yeah right
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okay he found it but it did by the time
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he's finished with these or he's never
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finished but after a while he he claims
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that the situation is that nobody knows
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anything
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no human being knows anything what about
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the God everything so that's the
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situation that's part of the point that
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he's making is now if if the situation
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is human no knowledge then how does a
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human how can a human be be wise as as
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the God says because the God says and
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the God knows everything right that's
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we're talking about Socrates assumptions
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God knows everything says that Socrates
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is wisest so it must be true so how
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could Socrates be wisest if he knows
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nothing right whether humanity is
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certainly part of it but he somehow
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recognizes he knows something this is
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the paradox of what he says he says that
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he knows only one thing that he knows
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nothing now those on a literal level
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those two statements contradict each
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other
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know something knows nothing knows that
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he knows nothing is a self contradictory
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statement however if you take the
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statement is true it means it it goes
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around and around he knows something
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which is that he knows nothing but he
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knows that he knows nothing so the
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difference between Socrates the
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difference between Socrates and other
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human beings and he doesn't say every
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other human being because at a certain
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point he says I understood finally what
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the what the Oracle was saying with
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God was saying to me it wasn't talking
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about Socrates he says it was talking
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about people who like me recognize that
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they know nothing okay now the point
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that I started out making I'm gonna come
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back to that one now but I want to put
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it remind you the context I was saying
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to you the charges he doesn't pay much
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attention to and the explanation for him
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not paying attention to them is that
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these charges are made by people who
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don't understand
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so they're not the charges are not very
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interesting and who are motivated that
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is to say they're making the charges not
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because they care about these things
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education piety whatever but because
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they are part of the group of people who
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found what he was doing to be painful
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and they think wrong so the real issue
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is not the charges but what was it that
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he was doing and is it justifiable or
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not so when he dismisses the charges he
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places a greater charge against himself
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this is what how can you justify what
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you were doing in order for us to
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justify what Socrates was doing we have
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to ask ourselves what the possible
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benefit could be of somebody who goes
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around asking people questions in order
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to determine whether any of them is
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wiser than he since he knows nothing and
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the only way that he could be wisest is
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if it turns out that they know nothing -
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so the outcome of this to use a word
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that mr. Selim II used before or mr.
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merriday law camera which one research
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right the outcome of this research is is
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on the literal level empty zero nobody
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knows anything okay so we have to ask
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ourselves what could the benefit of this
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be if Socrates is trying to meet the
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charges ultimately by saying none of the
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charges don't matter what matter is what
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matters is what I was doing so now he
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describes what he was doing and it looks
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like what he was doing is pointless now
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you found out nobody knows anything what
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use is that all right now let's go back
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to the use of row for a moment he says
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Euthyphro must know what piety is
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otherwise he wouldn't be charging his
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father so he asked you to forward tell
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me because I need to know what ideas so
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years of Rotel ism piety is doing what
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I'm doing and what he's referring to is
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charging his father
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well yeah but how do you know that
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charging your father is piety there's a
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good thing oh well because there are
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stories of Zeus doing the same thing
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Zeus charged his father
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okay so Euthyphro is doing the same kind
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of thing that the stories say that Zeus
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did now Socrates says he doesn't believe
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those stories and that's important
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because if we knew that the stories were
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true even if we didn't understand why
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they are stories of piety we would at
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least have a rule that we could follow
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we'd say okay I don't know why this is a
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good thing but I do know that the
32:05
that God did this so I'm in the same
32:07
situation so I'll do the same thing I
32:09
don't know why it's a good thing to do
32:11
but it's you know I have beliefs that
32:15
the God knows all right so I could
32:17
follow it but if we don't know that the
32:19
stories are true then we cannot use them
32:23
as certain models to follow and they do
32:28
not tell us whether they're true or not
32:31
they do not tell us what piety is why
32:36
not if you have three different
32:42
triangles and you identify them all as
32:45
triangles so you have three examples of
32:49
triangles well why is that not a
32:51
definition of a triangle there Alfred
33:03
you don't want to tell me about
33:05
triangles do you know that that's what
33:15
triangles look like how can you know
33:20
what triangles look like if you don't
33:21
know what a triangle is but you you do
33:30
know what a triangle is don't you but
33:32
the question is do you find out what a
33:34
triangle is by being told that these
33:37
three are triangles so what is a
33:40
triangle yeah the closed is what figure
33:47
means right so but if you say plain that
33:50
would be helpful because it makes a
33:51
two-dimensional but alright three-sided
33:53
figure okay so leave me you wanted to
33:57
say something about this I want to know
34:03
if if we think that this is a triangle
34:08
and this is a trial this is a triangle
34:10
are we right is that true of course
34:14
they're poorly drawn but you know what I
34:15
mean okay so it's true so
34:18
we're right that those are three
34:19
triangles does it does that mean we know
34:22
what a triangle is well what is a
34:29
triangle say it again
34:34
three yeah three-sided plane figure
34:37
right but I didn't say that this is a
34:39
plane a three-sided plane figure if I
34:41
did I would not only be telling you that
34:45
this is a triangle I would be telling
34:46
you what a triangle is right so when I
34:53
tell you what a triangle is now I can
34:55
tell you why each of these is a triangle
34:57
now even when I didn't tell you what a
35:00
triangle is and I said each of those is
35:02
a triangle I was right but I was not
35:04
giving a definition and therefore I was
35:06
not giving knowledge because you need
35:09
the definition in order you need to know
35:11
what a triangle is in order to know that
35:15
those are triangles and for example that
35:25
that isn't so you said no that's not a
35:29
triangle why not you have to be able to
35:32
say because it's got four sides not
35:34
three so it's the definition that tells
35:38
you what the thing is and if you know
35:42
that the definition is right then you
35:43
can know that everything that fits the
35:45
definition is that kind of thing and
35:47
everything that doesn't isn't before
35:49
that you might have belief but not
35:51
knowledge that's the distinction that
35:54
Socrates is making and your beliefs can
35:56
be true even when you don't have
35:57
knowledge if it weren't if that weren't
35:59
the case then human beings and other
36:01
sentient creatures dogs and monkeys and
36:03
everything wouldn't be able to live we
36:05
make up our minds about stuff when mr.
36:08
Dawkins got his lunch and I got my water
36:10
we did not run chemical tests to make
36:13
sure that they were free of impurities
36:16
that could make us sick or even kill us
36:18
but what did we do how do you how do you
36:23
avoid impurities in your food do you run
36:26
chemical tests every time you have a
36:27
meal no because usually the test must
36:29
probably take days so you
36:32
you'd be eating stale food all the time
36:35
so what do you do well if you yes if you
36:42
have reliable people your mother or your
36:45
some store you know person you have
36:48
confidence in but what is it then but
36:50
that just passes the buck so what do
36:52
they do do they run chemical tests does
36:56
your mother run a chemical test every
36:57
time she feeds you what uh-huh
37:07
so oh right okay so you you you get some
37:13
indication of freshness be based on what
37:17
idea what's know what's the idea of
37:21
freshness what what is freshness what if
37:25
we why do we think it's good if it's
37:27
fresh why don't we think it's good if
37:29
it's sits around for clean what does
37:32
clean me know that's the effect what is
37:35
clean mean clean means it doesn't have
37:38
what yeah bacteria because so we have a
37:42
theory of bacteria in mind which wasn't
37:46
always the way people thought about
37:48
these things you know there was a time
37:49
of a hundred and fifty years ago or so
37:51
when people like Pasteur that had made
37:54
the discovery of bacteria that surgeons
37:57
did not wash their hands before surgery
37:59
or after for that matter unless they got
38:01
really messy right and when they were
38:04
told initially that they should wash
38:07
their hands too so their patients didn't
38:09
die and because there were these
38:11
invisible little things they thought it
38:14
was a ridiculous I o funny little things
38:16
that you can't see it sounds like a
38:19
made-up story except it turns out those
38:23
little things do exist right so you've
38:25
got this theory about bacteria and the
38:29
theory includes the idea that it takes
38:32
time for bacteria to grow in most
38:35
bacteria are harmless unless they unless
38:38
it becomes sufficiently you know enough
38:41
of them that they begin to
38:43
be able to do things in your body it's a
38:45
core some bacteria are more harmful than
38:47
others all right so that's your theory
38:50
and does that enable you to know if in
38:55
fact there are deadly bacteria on that
38:57
food that this example is okay because
39:01
mr. Dawkins finished no I was talking
39:04
like this while he was eating it would
39:05
be not nice right do you know do you
39:12
know that there's no deadly bacteria
39:14
when you eat food no you don't know what
39:17
you what you have is a kind of
39:19
probability if it's fresh it's unlikely
39:22
to be harmful to you but we hear stories
39:27
all the time right about restaurants and
39:30
salad bars and so on people have a nice
39:33
salad and then keel over fortunately it
39:38
doesn't happen very often but it does
39:40
happen so so what I'm illustrating is
39:46
that in life we make decisions based on
39:51
beliefs that have some degree of
39:53
probability it's not that the beliefs
39:54
come out of the blue they're based on
39:56
our experience and experience is a good
39:59
guide in life but it is by no means an
40:02
infallible guide right human beings
40:10
think of how unreliable we are we think
40:14
well if you get to know somebody you
40:15
learn whether you can trust them or not
40:17
and that works out pretty well for the
40:19
most part but some people you know seem
40:23
to be trustworthy who are not so we lack
40:27
knowledge now Socrates is arguing for
40:31
seeking knowledge he says it's very
40:33
important but he's not talking about
40:36
knowledge so that you can be sure that
40:39
what you're doing in some case is gonna
40:41
work out the way you want to he's
40:42
arguing for knowledge that it's seeking
40:46
knowledge that will give you an
40:47
understanding of what's good and what's
40:50
not and therefore his discussions are
40:52
always about things like piety justice
40:55
and so on
40:57
how just as you can't know that this is
40:59
a triangle you might believe it you
41:01
might think it but you can't know it
41:02
unless you know what a triangle is
41:03
similarly you cannot know that this is
41:06
unjust where this is just unless you
41:10
know what justice is and Euthyphro
41:14
cannot know whether his act of charging
41:18
his father is an act of piety or not
41:20
unless he knows what piety is so he
41:23
thinks that human beings should spend
41:25
time thinking about these things in
41:30
order to acquire that knowledge in order
41:32
to have truth and knowledge in their
41:35
minds rather than falsehood and belief
41:43
now let's come back to the idea that he
41:48
knows nothing the idea that he knows
41:55
nothing and that other people know
41:57
nothing suggests well if you show
42:03
somebody who thinks that he knows
42:05
something that he's wrong that he
42:08
doesn't know it which is what Socrates
42:10
frequently did right and what a lot of
42:13
people found some people found very
42:15
annoying if you show somebody that he
42:20
doesn't know what he thinks he knows
42:22
you're doing him a benefit because what
42:30
what does he know knows that he doesn't
42:34
know now how is that a benefit
42:43
what's the benefit if you if you think
42:54
you know something you don't have to
42:57
think about it if you're shown that you
42:59
don't know it that gives you the
43:01
opportunity to think about it some more
43:03
now thinking about it some more doesn't
43:04
guarantee you're gonna get knowledge but
43:06
at least it gives you a chance right
43:10
so people who think they know are
43:13
benefited by questioning from Socrates
43:16
or somebody else or from themselves even
43:20
because if they discover that they
43:23
really don't know that there's some
43:24
problems what they think they can try to
43:26
get a better understanding but if you
43:29
think you know you don't you won't try
43:31
to get a better understanding now what's
43:37
the point of saying though that nobody
43:39
knows anything is if nobody knows
43:46
anything does that mean that you cannot
43:50
benefit yourself by thinking more
43:53
because if you think more about it what
43:57
the benefit that you're looking for is
44:00
to get some knowledge get some
44:01
understanding now how can we put those
44:06
two together the idea that we should
44:10
think more and the idea that we can
44:11
never have knowledge because the benefit
44:14
of thinking more is to get knowledge
44:20
tough right however
44:27
if we look at these discussions do we
44:34
actually find Socrates saying that
44:36
everybody knows nothing and that's all
44:39
there is to it who knows more about
44:43
piety Socrates are you surfer oh you're
44:52
not sure
44:55
well there's user fro know what a
44:59
definition of piety would is no Socrates
45:03
teaches him that right the way you know
45:07
that this is a triangle is by
45:09
recognizing what these three have in
45:11
common that makes them triangles right
45:14
it's not their differences the
45:16
difference of shape and size and so on
45:18
it's what they have in common they are
45:21
all three-sided figures right it's
45:23
recited playing figures Euthyphro talks
45:26
about stories that are stories about
45:28
piety but that never say what they all
45:31
have in common that makes them all about
45:33
piety Socrates teaches him that if
45:36
you're going to have knowledge of piety
45:38
you have to know what it is knowing what
45:40
it is means what those stories all have
45:42
in common
45:43
and so Yusef Rowe tries to do that and
45:48
he gives an answer what they all have in
45:51
common which is a definition but turns
45:55
out to be a false definition because
45:59
what follows from his definition which
46:01
is that the gods
46:02
Tidy is what the gods love because it's
46:05
polytheistic religion and the gods are
46:07
constantly fighting with each other and
46:09
disagreeing about things like piety and
46:12
justice and so on that means that you if
46:16
you use that definition that means that
46:18
anything that you do is both pious and
46:20
impious so it's self contradictory it's
46:24
opposed to triangle and not a triangle
46:27
all right
46:29
so by teaching him that Socrates has
46:33
increased his understanding he's looking
46:37
for the things that the various stories
46:39
have in common that makes them stories
46:41
of piety he's increasing his
46:43
understanding and if he's increasing his
46:45
understanding then that tells us that
46:46
Socrates knows more about piety than
46:48
music does same thing is true in the
46:52
apology isn't it so if by comparison
46:59
with Euthyphro and others Socrates
47:02
actually knows more than they do if we
47:06
take the evidence of the dialogues
47:08
you've read what comparison would make
47:13
it true to say that he knows nothing
47:24
it's by comparison with God that's right
47:27
so
47:36
I have to throw this way because it's
47:39
actually dead and I keep using it those
47:59
are those are three categories that
48:02
exhaust quantity you're talking in quant
48:06
terms of quantity the quantity can be
48:10
nothing no quantity or or it could be
48:14
something some quantity or it could be
48:16
all and some is anything from one to
48:21
anything less than all right in in the
48:26
case of numbers if you're doing
48:28
quantification in terms of numbers it's
48:30
kind of hard to talk about all right why
48:35
what yeah there yeah there's there's no
48:39
biggest number right now there are ways
48:44
of talking about all all numbers even
48:49
though you can't count them all and get
48:50
the highest number okay but so these
48:53
these are the concepts that Socrates
48:58
riddle is about it's a riddle
49:00
just as the God gave a riddle Socrates
49:03
is the wisest he says oh I'm the wisest
49:06
I know nothing so that's the riddle but
49:10
what Socrates is showing you when he
49:14
says that he knows nothing is that he
49:16
compares his knowledge to the knowledge
49:20
of the God now let's suppose that he has
49:24
some knowledge which seems to be knots
49:27
not what he says he says he has none but
49:29
what we seem to see from watching him in
49:33
these dialogues is that he has some
49:34
knowledge and that it's more than other
49:37
people there may be other people who
49:38
know more than he does we don't know but
49:39
certainly from the ones we've seen he
49:41
knows more so let's suppose he has some
49:44
knowledge if you compare it to other
49:48
people it's some now
49:50
for example he knows when he doesn't
49:53
know and that's some knowledge that
49:56
other people don't always have because
49:57
they think they know and they're
49:58
mistaken all right but it may be more
50:00
than that
50:03
but what is it that makes it no
50:05
knowledge and the answer I think is when
50:08
he compares it to the God and the reason
50:12
that it's no knowledge compared to the
50:14
God is because when you have some
50:18
knowledge but you lack other knowledge
50:21
you are lacking knowledge of the place
50:24
that the some knowledge you have has in
50:27
the whole because you lack knowledge of
50:30
the whole and therefore your knowledge
50:34
has a certain deficiency to it okay this
50:41
is a difficult concept but I think that
50:43
what Socrates is saying is if we compare
50:46
ourselves to to the gods that is to say
50:48
to the whole truth what we recognize is
50:52
two things one that it is beneficial to
50:57
pursue truths that is we can learn we
51:00
human beings can learn we can get more
51:02
than we've got otherwise there'd be no
51:05
point to it and to that we will never
51:09
finish
51:11
we'll never get knowledge such that we
51:14
can say that's it no more questions that
51:22
is for the God not us so we are always
51:29
in the position as human beings of
51:31
seeking never completely having right
51:37
now in monotheistic religions sometimes
51:40
this takes the form of concepts like
51:43
grace right grace means thanks right
51:46
that you know in order for you to get
51:49
completeness you need God's help human
51:55
beings can never do it on their own okay
51:58
now let's any questions about that I
52:03
mean it's a tricky business so let's
52:11
talk about the credo again what I want
52:23
to emphasize is finding the argument
52:28
finding the organization of ideas in the
52:30
Credo that gets the whole thing what's
52:34
the problem that the cryto poses for us
52:38
for us to think about what is cried Oh
52:42
on what mr. Alvarez yes
52:48
so credo is so on one level it's very
52:50
simple right
52:51
credo has bribed the guard and made
52:55
arrangements in Thessaly for Socrates to
52:58
leave and nobody you know the Athenians
53:00
most most of them were not eager to kill
53:03
Socrates they they would have been happy
53:08
if Socrates had agreed to keep his mouth
53:12
shut for example those I'm talking about
53:15
those who are accusing I'm not talking
53:17
about the ones who loved them would have
53:19
been happy if he'd agreed to keep his
53:20
mouth shut
53:21
what What did he say in the apology
53:23
about this is this by the way is about
53:25
the essay so you know I'm just want to
53:27
alert you What did he say in the apology
53:30
to the idea of you know sometimes we
53:38
have a court case where the defendant is
53:42
asked to promise that he's gonna not do
53:45
that stuff anymore and if he agrees to
53:46
that that's part of the deal okay you
53:48
can go but you're on probation or
53:51
whatever right what would Socrates say
53:54
if the court said to him we're gonna let
53:59
you go Socrates but no more philosophers
54:02
we don't want you going around asking
54:03
people questions okay what would what
54:07
yes mister
54:12
right
54:13
he'd say no why what's what by what
54:22
authority would he continue
54:30
well when sometimes there's always an
54:34
authority involved in our actions the
54:37
authority might just be ourselves you
54:40
know so so somebody asks why you're
54:43
doing it you you might say because I
54:45
want to and I regard my wants as
54:50
authoritative at least to a certain
54:51
extent there may be other high or
54:54
considerations sometimes too but but
54:56
they carry weight they carry Authority
54:58
what I want right so Socrates could be
55:02
saying no I like doing it you tell me
55:05
not to do it I'm gonna do it anyway I
55:07
like it have a good time that's one
55:11
possible Authority but what is what has
55:14
he told us is the authority for his
55:18
asking mr. Coronado yeah he was oh he
55:26
was obeying the commandment of the God
55:28
and doing the work of the God and so
55:33
here we have a law of Athens and he's
55:36
saying that's in contradiction to the
55:39
command or commandments or laws of God
55:42
and so one Authority is higher than the
55:46
other in his judgment therefore he would
55:50
obey the God it's not that he wants to
55:56
ignore Oh see knee and authority and
55:59
laws but not when they contradict the
56:01
God
56:03
so in the Credo and this is what the
56:07
essay is about in the Credo he says not
56:12
he shouldn't he shouldn't break a scene
56:14
in law and therefore he shouldn't leave
56:15
but before we get to that conclusion I
56:19
want I said I want us to get some
56:21
understanding of
56:23
the outline of the cradle so the first
56:27
step was cryto says let's leave and most
56:31
people in that situation would be
56:33
thrilled the same way maybe we would
56:35
have been thrilled if we were told that
56:36
we're the wisest you know even if we had
56:39
some doubts about whether we were wiser
56:41
than other people we would say oh that's
56:43
wonderful
56:44
that should be given such a compliment
56:47
by the priestess at Delphi and now most
56:53
of us would say oh I've been so worried
56:56
I thought I'm gonna be dead in two days
56:58
right now I'm free Thank You cry Oh
57:03
cried oh you've been such a good friend
57:05
all my life this is really wonderful and
57:09
we would go we say oh let her wait let
57:12
me just get my toothbrush I don't know
57:19
if the Greeks use toothbrushes they must
57:22
have used something anyway not a major
57:28
point right okay so here's what he says
57:33
- cried oh that should make immediately
57:36
good sense to you cried oh is rushing
57:40
him saying let's go why because he wants
57:46
to get out of there before anybody you
57:49
know who might stop them notices them
57:54
leaving and he wants to avoid this
57:58
impending doom this death that's gonna
58:01
come to Socrates in a couple of days
58:02
time is important he's in a hurry
58:06
Socrates speaks against that rush by
58:14
saying all my life and much of yours
58:19
cried oh we have talked about these
58:21
things about what's the right thing to
58:25
do to be pious or just right
58:32
and we have come to some answers notice
58:36
how that two differs from what he said
58:39
in the apology where if you know where
58:41
the apology is stressing that he knows
58:42
nothing he's talking in the Credo is if
58:47
they had accomplished something now that
58:49
doesn't mean he now thinks he's a god
58:51
but he says unless we can come up with
58:55
something different now we shouldn't
58:58
change our minds just because we're
59:01
afraid of death and he compares he
59:03
compares them to if they did so they
59:05
would be like children who get afraid in
59:07
the dark they would be like children in
59:16
other words it would make his life's
59:20
work into something silly like a child's
59:23
game which is not to be taken seriously
59:25
because when it comes right down to it
59:28
when he's facing death it amounts to
59:32
nothing right so he's he's making an
59:36
argument to credo as to why they should
59:41
remind themselves what they have agreed
59:45
to in the past that's step one and then
59:48
step two is to apply it to this
59:51
situation he's not assuming the answer
59:55
he's saying let's see what what did we
59:58
agree to about this stuff and let's see
60:01
what it tells us to do in this situation
60:03
so to put it in general terms you've got
60:06
a you know just as we were talking
60:08
before with use of ro about examples
60:11
stories and definitions that help you to
60:14
understand those stories here we're
60:17
talking about a situation that calls for
60:20
action a case and what's our theory our
60:24
theory being what we had agreed to in
60:26
the past
60:27
is the truth to the best of our ability
60:30
to understand these things and so what
60:33
he reminds him they had agreed to in the
60:35
past was this very important distinction
60:38
that I have sort of scribbled here with
60:42
a line like the shows are higher and a
60:44
lower
60:45
that life isn't the most important thing
60:48
the most important thing is how you live
60:50
it
60:51
so it's not a matter of staying alive
60:54
having the greatest number of years it's
60:57
a matter of the not the quantity but we
61:00
could say the quality and well and that
61:03
justice is a good life now let me try to
61:08
clarify what that means these are points
61:13
that are made at great length in a
61:17
dialogue called the Republic and in the
61:20
past for many years I use the Republic
61:23
in this course and then this past couple
61:25
of semesters I decided no let me do
61:27
something more more traditional that is
61:30
to say it's typical for introductions to
61:32
philosophy to use the apology and these
61:36
other dialogues but especially the
61:38
apology because the apology is the
61:40
introduction to Socrates and Socrates is
61:42
the guy who sort of models philosophy
61:45
the life devoted to philosophy so it's a
61:47
good introduction to philosophy even
61:51
though other philosophers might disagree
61:52
with Socrates and so on they do so in
61:59
the Republic Socrates compares two
62:07
different ideas about life with respect
62:11
to justice again the more common one the
62:15
one that would be held by people who
62:18
would be only too happy to escape from
62:21
jail and live somewhere else in exile
62:23
that is probably most people in that one
62:31
in that way of thinking about justice
62:33
the worst thing that could happen to a
62:35
person is injustice that is to say if
62:39
somebody does an injustice to you you
62:42
are harmed
62:45
you somebody injures you bodily or kills
62:50
you or kills a loved one or something
62:53
like that or takes your money or
62:55
whatever these are all in varying
62:57
degrees terrible things to happen to a
62:59
person and Socrates would not disagree
63:01
with that but he doesn't think that
63:04
they're the worst things in the in the
63:07
standard model so to speak it's
63:09
suffering injustice having it done to
63:12
you that is worst in Socrates conception
63:17
having justice done to you is bad but
63:20
not worst the worst thing is doing it
63:26
because doing it makes you unjust and
63:30
being unjust means that your your soul
63:33
your mind whatever you want to call it
63:35
has become bad your life has become bad
63:39
you've become bad it's not just
63:42
something bad happen to you you are bad
63:47
right so so that means that the best
63:54
thing in the best thing is in the model
64:01
where suffering injustice is the worst
64:04
thing the best thing often means doing
64:07
injustice and getting away with it so
64:12
that you become the boss or elected to
64:16
office or wealthy or whatever in other
64:19
words you you achieve your goals whether
64:22
it involves injustice or not you can
64:25
diff it does involve injustice you do it
64:27
and you get away with it
64:28
in Socrates model the best thing is
64:32
doing justice the worst thing is
64:35
suffering is doing injustice and
64:39
suffering injustice is in in between
64:41
it's bad it's not that it's good but
64:44
it's not as bad okay so that's what he
64:48
is reminding cryto of and anybody who
64:51
knows the Republic knows that they're
64:53
referring to this so you don't know the
64:55
Republic I assume so I'm telling you a
64:57
little bit just so you
64:58
at least get the idea I'm not saying the
65:00
ideas will be totally clear
65:02
uncomfortable but I'm trying to give you
65:04
some idea of what he's referring to so
65:07
if there's never a good reason to do
65:11
injustice because that's the worst right
65:14
and something that's not as bad as the
65:17
worst has to be the worst can never be a
65:21
reason doing the worst thing could never
65:23
be smart right if there's because it's
65:26
the worst alternative if there's any
65:27
alternative at all it's better than that
65:32
including dying this is what Socrates is
65:34
saying right so if that's true now he's
65:40
talked about the theory this is the
65:43
theory this is what we've agreed to in
65:45
the past these are our ideas that we
65:48
think are true now the question is will
65:51
we like to take theories and apply them
65:54
to facts right so let's apply it to this
65:56
case to see what it tells us now this is
66:02
a case in which injustice has been done
66:04
to Socrates Socrates thinks oh and cryto
66:10
thinks so right but who has done
66:15
injustice to Socrates
66:26
mr. Alford so in this case who are they
66:42
I know the first part is hope what's the
66:44
second part
66:45
tell me I'm sorry what Campbell right
66:50
sorry go ahead
66:53
yeah the people who voted against them
66:55
in fact in in the apology after the
66:58
death sentence comes in he addresses the
67:02
two sets of judges those who voted for
67:06
him and those who voted against him
67:08
separately
67:10
two to those who voted against him first
67:15
of all to those who voted for him he
67:16
says don't worry we don't know the death
67:20
is a bad thing you're all upset your
67:22
friend Socrates is gonna die but we
67:24
don't know that death is a bad thing but
67:26
to the ones who voted against him he
67:28
says something you are worse off than I
67:33
am right why are they worse worse off
67:38
than he he uses the analogy of a swift
67:44
runner catching somebody the the evil
67:48
that's about to catch that has caught
67:51
has already caught you I'm being pursued
67:54
by a very Swift runner what's the Swift
67:56
runner that's pursuing Socrates where
67:57
does that metaphor me no no something
68:03
bad that's gonna happen to him death yes
68:07
how does it make sense miss Francis
68:10
right to speak of death as fast well is
68:18
there anybody who out runs it get it
68:21
even you know maybe you'll God willing
68:24
you'll live to 110 and be healthy the
68:26
whole time actually my people the Jewish
68:29
people use the number 120
68:31
and of course in the Bible there were
68:34
people who the 700 or so but we're not
68:37
sure how they were counting but in any
68:39
case if you live a hundred years or
68:43
seven hundred years the fact is we're
68:46
immortal right we die if you think of
68:49
death as being caught by a runner what
68:52
that means is that that runner catches
68:54
us all and therefore is faster than all
68:56
of us and in that sense its death is
69:00
fast doesn't necessarily mean it's gonna
69:01
happen to you soon but eventually you'll
69:04
be caught okay enough of that
69:05
unpleasantness what what faster runner
69:11
has caught the people who voted against
69:13
him you know it was Campbell what bad
69:16
thing has caught them what was I asking
69:19
you before who is in this story who is
69:23
what he and Socrates agreed their theory
69:29
now we're gonna apply it to this case
69:30
we're looking for who is what unjust
69:34
right who has done something unjust
69:36
so the answer is his his the judges
69:41
voted against him right now what Swift
69:44
runner has caught them well what's the
69:47
evil that they that's caught them in
69:50
justice right not that injustice has
69:53
been done to them but in justice that
69:55
they have done now why call that a swift
70:00
runner why is that even swifter than
70:02
death because death takes a while you
70:04
know 10 years 20 years 100 years
70:06
whatever it is it takes a while to catch
70:08
you how long does it take injustice to
70:13
catch you the answer is its
70:16
instantaneous do you see why the moment
70:23
you make a bad choice it has already
70:28
corrupted your mind to some degree it
70:31
may not have turned you into some
70:33
disgusting awful thing but it but it's
70:35
made you worse not better immediately
70:41
and so there remember I was telling you
70:45
this is in the Republic it's in the
70:46
apology right there when he addresses
70:49
the the jurors okay so now he he says
70:54
okay those jurors those judges they were
70:58
unjust to me but when if I were to
71:03
escape as you suggest cryto I will be
71:08
injuring not those judges but what what
71:14
the laws yes and that's why he has a
71:17
make-believe dialog between himself and
71:20
the laws as if the laws were people
71:23
because he he wants he wants to
71:25
dramatize this idea of injury the laws
71:28
say to him look Socrates you your
71:33
parents wouldn't have been able to get
71:35
married have a baby give it an education
71:39
so that you became smarty pants
71:42
philosopher right without us you know
71:48
it's it's a it's like the African
71:50
expression what does it take to raise a
71:52
baby a village and a village has laws
71:56
and laws are not just you know we're not
71:58
just talking about written down speeding
72:01
written laws like the speed limit and
72:03
that kind of thing but customs the way
72:05
that people live everything including
72:08
the religion and all their beliefs and
72:11
values and so on this is the environment
72:14
in which people are raised and if people
72:17
have great accomplishments they owe them
72:20
at least in part to the village the
72:23
community in which they were raised
72:25
right and now is Socrates saying that
72:30
the laws are perfect you wouldn't think
72:33
so this is the guy who keeps saying we
72:35
have to ask questions so that's the way
72:38
that's the answer to the essay on the
72:43
one hand we have Socrates saying that if
72:46
you told me that if you passed a law
72:48
that said no more philosophy I would
72:49
break that law on the other hand we have
72:51
Socrates saying I would rather die the
72:55
break that breaks the law because
72:57
breaking the law would be committing
72:58
injustice and that wouldn't make my life
73:02
a bad life and I would hurt my soul and
73:09
I'd rather die then do that okay so how
73:14
do you put those two together well
73:16
laws laws need two things to be good
73:21
they need to be just yes they need to be
73:24
good laws but they also need to be
73:27
obeyed you can have wonderful laws that
73:30
people ignore and they're not worth a
73:32
damn
73:33
right you have a speed limit a the speed
73:37
limit here is 30 yeah but everybody's
73:38
driving 50 yeah we don't pay any
73:40
attention speed limit what kind of law
73:41
is that right I just use speed limit as
73:46
an example because it's so obvious so
73:47
clear you know so how do you make laws
73:53
better if you assume that the laws can
73:56
be improved not necessarily every law
73:58
all the time has to be changed but we
74:00
have to yeah how do you make them better
74:06
no no but how do you how do you get
74:08
better punishments whatever it is about
74:10
the law and and we change our minds
74:12
about punishments don't we right now the
74:14
country well at least in until this the
74:17
presidential election there was a big
74:18
movement that apparently was supported
74:20
by both Republicans and Democrats that
74:22
we were putting too many people in jail
74:23
for too long for for very minor offenses
74:26
and we were doing more harm than good
74:28
to them and to us the rest of us right
74:31
so so you know we change your minds
74:35
about things like that we sweet we learn
74:36
from experience but what we have to do
74:39
in order to improve the laws is the same
74:41
thing we have to do to improve our
74:43
understanding of anything we have to
74:45
think and we have to talk to each other
74:50
isn't that what Socrates did you ask
74:54
people what they think and question it
74:57
okay that's why he won't give that up
75:00
it's not just and you don't have good
75:03
laws if you have a law against
75:07
questioning the law
75:08
cause you have to question laws and obey
75:14
them isn't that also what dr. King said
75:19
isn't that what nonviolent resistance
75:22
was all about
75:24
we respect law even though we don't by
75:28
the way dr. King and letter from
75:30
Birmingham jail which was written to
75:33
white ministers who said they were
75:38
supporters of what dr. King and others
75:40
if it wasn't just dr. King there are
75:42
lots of people in different groups and
75:44
they didn't all get along and everything
75:45
but a lot of people were working for
75:47
these changes these white ministers
75:52
claimed to support these changes but
75:56
they also said that dr. King is a common
76:00
criticism made at the time you're going
76:02
too fast
76:03
so dr. King's letter from Birmingham
76:05
jail is about how you know when you're
76:11
standing when you're standing on
76:12
somebody else's foot like on the subway
76:14
of it but by accident somebody steps on
76:16
somebody's foot who's in a hurry for the
76:18
situation to change the guy whose foot
76:22
is on the bottom right right so you know
76:24
we waited a long time it's hurting you
76:27
know so dr. King's expresses it much
76:30
more nicely than that but that's the
76:32
sort of point he makes but in the course
76:37
of it he says we believe in law and
76:41
obedience to law except where law is
76:44
unjust and he said he defines an unjust
76:47
law and it's very similar to the kind of
76:50
thing that's that Plato and Socrates are
76:53
saying here an unjust law he says is
76:55
anything that diminishes human beings
77:01
makes them worse as human beings and
77:05
these segregation laws against use of
77:11
public facilities and so on were
77:16
obviously degrading and harmful to
77:19
people
77:20
okay so
77:30
he won't break the laws because the he
77:36
got the way we might express it now is
77:38
why saying he got due process the laws
77:43
were not at fault for what happened to
77:45
him what was at fault was the the judges
77:48
the jurors if it happened in this
77:52
country Socrates had a good attorney
77:56
there'd be an appeal that wasn't part of
77:59
their system so the laws were not
78:02
defective and by breaking the laws he
78:06
would be injuring them that's his
78:11
argument that's what the essays about
78:13
I've actually finished ten minutes
78:17
before so let me let me go back a little
78:23
bit anybody have any questions you want
78:24
to ask now about the essay as soon as
78:31
you get home you're gonna have questions
78:32
but you won't have me anymore so see if
78:36
you can think of one now there's a
78:40
question this stuff is all in the
78:43
syllabus but I'm happy to answer it now
78:45
it's two pages but it's two pages
78:48
single-spaced which is the equivalent of
78:52
four pages double-spaced obviously by
78:55
simple arithmetic two pages
78:57
single-spaced ya know first of all I
79:02
don't want you to quote Plato or me or
79:08
anybody else I am glad you reminded me
79:13
of this kind of stuff some of you may be
79:19
tempted to use sources from the internet
79:23
or whatever and I can tell you it's a
79:25
big mistake first of all it's not
79:27
allowed I don't allow it
79:28
I don't even allow you to quote Plato as
79:29
I just said I do not want you to quote
79:31
Plato if you think that Plato has said
79:34
something that is right on target
79:37
exactly what you want to say at that
79:39
point in your essay then translate what
79:42
he says into your own words that
79:43
that doesn't mean that all your words
79:45
have to be different from his words I
79:46
mean some of the words might be the same
79:47
like justice and law an a and person or
79:51
whatever right it's the same language
79:53
but put it in your own words express it
79:55
in your own way and if you want to show
79:59
that it's that this is supported you can
80:01
just put it in parenthesis you can give
80:04
the Stephanus number you know about the
80:05
Stephanus numbers did I tell you about
80:09
the Stephanus numbers in the margins of
80:11
most editions of Plato's works so you
80:16
could show where this statement is made
80:18
but you don't give me the statement you
80:21
just give me the reference in case I
80:22
want to look and check but you put it in
80:25
your own words don't use anything from
80:28
the internet and I'm telling because
80:30
I'll give you an F and then you'll have
80:33
to come in and cry in my office if you
80:34
want me to let you do it over again you
80:37
won't have to cry but you at least have
80:38
to admit it and I'm telling you I I
80:40
always can tell because you know
80:44
professional authors don't write the way
80:46
you write it's not that you're terrible
80:48
authors or terrible writers but you just
80:51
don't write like that okay so don't do
80:54
it for your sake an essay that is that
81:00
is very confused but it's trying to
81:02
understand these things is worth a lot
81:04
more than right okay so no I don't care
81:10
about it being Staunton a standard style
81:12
so what why is everybody in a hurry you
81:14
think you're gonna get free time or
81:16
something here I'm not gonna let you go
81:18
before twenty two even I mean you think
81:21
you've been bored up till now wait
81:23
waiting to hear this next five minutes
81:27
of course anybody can leave any time you
81:29
want to that's your business
81:33
okay well any other questions about the
81:36
about the essay let me because if you
81:39
don't have any more questions about the
81:40
essay for now I'm gonna go back to
81:42
something I was talking about before in
81:49
the summary that I gave of the apology
81:52
today I didn't say much about the
81:55
charges
81:56
but in the logs that I read there there
82:01
was a lot of misunderstanding or very or
82:06
limited understanding and one comes to
82:09
mind that I want to clarify for you
82:15
number of people said to me something
82:17
like this Socrates said he couldn't be
82:21
the only one who's corrupting all the
82:24
youth because you know how could he get
82:27
around how many people could he corrupt
82:29
and so on so there must be other people
82:30
corrupting to use there is a point at
82:34
which Socrates says he can't be the only
82:36
one but that's not his defense if you
82:40
defend again take speeding as an example
82:42
if you say well other people's speed too
82:44
that's not gonna get you off is it it
82:47
just means they should get get a ticket
82:49
and pay a fine to what Socrates presents
82:54
here is an argument which I'm gonna
82:58
write a word on the board is is an
83:07
imputation an argument it makes an
83:14
imputation is an argument that says that
83:18
the the person making it's an art it's a
83:24
refutation of somebody else's argument
83:26
based on the idea that what the other
83:27
person is doing shows that he doesn't
83:32
care about what he's saying at all but
83:34
he has another motive that's what
83:36
Socrates shows about mellitus Meletus
83:42
says that socrates is corrupting the
83:44
youth Socrates says well who improves
83:47
the youth mellitus takes him a while
83:50
like Euthyphro to understand how to
83:52
answer that question but eventually he
83:55
says everybody but you all the good
83:58
citizens of Athens improve the youth you
84:01
gerdes only want to corrupt them now
84:03
Socrates says that that answer shows
84:07
that Meletus has given no thought
84:09
whatsoever
84:10
to the idea to the problem of improving
84:13
the use and since he's given no thought
84:16
to it making charges about it has to
84:20
have some other motive the motive can't
84:23
be his educational concerns cuz he
84:25
doesn't have any he hasn't paid any
84:28
attention to education whatsoever now
84:30
how does that show how does answering
84:33
that oil athenians improve the youth
84:34
showed that he hasn't thought about it
84:37
well he makes the analogy with horse
84:41
training right did we talk about this
84:43
before
84:43
no okay suddenly I had a deja vu feeling
84:48
but it was for my first class not this
84:49
one whoo all right forget about horses
84:56
let's talk about dogs my son and
84:59
daughter-in-law dogs sit they get
85:05
strangers dogs and I know they pay up 25
85:07
bucks for the weekend or something to
85:08
take care of dogs they enjoy doing it so
85:11
yesterday when I visited my son my
85:16
daughter law wasn't there
85:17
she's visiting her friends he had a
85:19
poodle named Bobo he he met me at the
85:25
trains at the subway station and I took
85:28
whoa bo on the leash because I was
85:30
brought some stuff for him he carried
85:32
the stuff and Bobo didn't know anything
85:35
about walking with somebody on a leash
85:38
Bobo was an adorable poodle about 30
85:40
pounds and supposedly a standard poodle
85:42
was very small for a standard poodle and
85:44
she was very sweet and nice and
85:46
everything she wanted to lick me all the
85:48
time but but she didn't know how to walk
85:51
well she's always going here going there
85:53
I say come on Bobo you don't know
85:55
anything about walking you know yeah I
85:57
didn't get mad at her but I had to keep
85:59
her under control so
86:04
when when people have problems training
86:07
dogs what do they do yeah you get a dog
86:13
trainer cuz draw dog trainers know how
86:15
to train them and they know how to do it
86:17
in a nice way you don't have to be cruel
86:19
but you do have to be firm sometimes and
86:23
you use positive reinforcement right you
86:25
give them a little cookie or something
86:27
when they do things right
86:29
it works with humans too you know so by
86:36
saying that everybody improves the use
86:39
except Socrates what user fro what
86:43
mellitus is showing he doesn't recognize
86:47
is that in order to make something
86:50
better you have to know what's better
86:53
and how to get it in other words it's
86:56
the same point you always want to make
86:59
about Socrates Socrates emphasizes
87:01
knowledge in this seeking of knowledge
87:04
when he talks about his life with the
87:06
God told him to do seek knowledge that's
87:09
Socrates so Meletus has shown
87:13
that's not his idea these law abiding
87:17
Athenian citizens might might be good
87:20
people in many ways but it hardly makes
87:23
sense to say those who don't think about
87:25
these things at all are better influence
87:27
than those who do know about it so
87:31
that's the odd impute out in other words
87:33
by showing that Meletus hasn't thought
87:37
about improving the youth which is a
87:41
phrase that means we expressed by using
87:44
the word education he hasn't thought
87:49
about it at all it shows that his
87:51
charges are without any basis that's how
87:54
those that particular charge gets
87:56
refuted so what I want you to do look
87:59
when I tell you to write logs I tell you
88:00
I don't expect you to understand this
88:03
stuff but of course you'll never
88:04
understand it if you're not trying at
88:07
least a little bit initially to find the
88:09
argument how do the ideas reach a
88:13
conclusion and then where does that
88:15
argument fit in the hole
88:17
dialogue that's what I want you to be
88:18
looking for all right so now one last
88:21
thing no class Wednesday we meet again
88:24
on Monday and your draft is due on the
88:27
Wednesday after that okay